Aeroponics, drip systems and geeks (long)

[Geek]

High ADPC,

I started out in 1994 using a wick system, just 2-liter pots in a
reservoir. Somebody sold me a Foothill Hydroponics aeroponic system for
$25 because somebody had given it to him and he preferred dirt to
hydro. I took it apart and added some bigger PVC pipes to adapt it to a
Rubbermaid tank like the EZClone grower. I've used it since 1998. I've
had some very good results with aero using a constant spray, but I've
lost whole crops when something minor went awry, like a mist head
getting clogged or a pump dying at the worst possible opportunity.

Today I just built a drip system using the same Via Aqua pump from
Discount Hydroponics that I used in the aero system. I cut holes in two
lengths of white rigid PVC because I'm sick of having something go wrong
with aero even though I love building and tending to aeroponic units. A
few things I'm wondering about:

A. I've started my seeds at the same time in the aero unit and the drip
unit. I have a total of 830 watts of light. Which hydro unit do you
think will grow more quickly barring something fucking up?

B. With a 130 gallons per hour Via Aqua 302 pump in an 18 gallon
Rubbermaid tank, would you put the drip unit on a timer for intermittent
irrigation, the way I have the aero unit set?

C. Are tech obsessed Rube Goldberg type geeks like myself the only
people who like messing around with aeroponics? I've met dozens of
hydro growers and I'm the only one I know of who actually uses an
aeroponic system let alone likes building them. It's a high-maintenance
system but the results are tremendous. I've never used nft or ebb and
flow and this is the first time I've ever used a drip system. Why do
"normal" gardeners run, not walk, from anything aeroponic?

Muchas grassias, Yerba Buena

[Moon Doggie]

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 05:50:01 GMT, Geek <spam@spam.spam> wrote:

>High ADPC,
>
>I started out in 1994 using a wick system, just 2-liter pots in a
>reservoir. Somebody sold me a Foothill Hydroponics aeroponic system for
>$25 because somebody had given it to him and he preferred dirt to
>hydro. I took it apart and added some bigger PVC pipes to adapt it to a
>Rubbermaid tank like the EZClone grower. I've used it since 1998. I've
>had some very good results with aero using a constant spray, but I've
>lost whole crops when something minor went awry, like a mist head
>getting clogged or a pump dying at the worst possible opportunity.
>

I've been using an aeroponic system for several years w/out a single
problem. From my experience, though, you tend to get what you pay
for. If you paid $25 for something that someone else got for free, I
would be doubly suspicious that it might be a lemon. On the other
hand, part of the problem might be how you were using the system. Did
you use high-quality *liquid* nutes, e.g., from General Hydroponics?
Never use dissolved powered nutes in an aero system. Also, if the
system is old, it may have older nozzle designs, which do tend to get
clogged, especially if using powered nutes. Newer designs don't tend
to have this problem. In addition, you should flush the system
completely with plain water for at least five minutes every couple of
weeks or so (i.e., when you change the reservoir contents).

BTW, you can't just go away for a long time and expect a system to
take care of itself. You need to check the system at least once a day
until the roots descend into the reservoir water. After that, pump
failure shouldn't be a major problem. But a good, high-quality pump
designed for aero systems should last and last if properly maintained
(filter and impeller checked every so often and cleaned as necessary).

>Today I just built a drip system using the same Via Aqua pump from
>Discount Hydroponics that I used in the aero system. I cut holes in two
>lengths of white rigid PVC because I'm sick of having something go wrong
>with aero even though I love building and tending to aeroponic units. A
>few things I'm wondering about:
>
>A. I've started my seeds at the same time in the aero unit and the drip
>unit. I have a total of 830 watts of light. Which hydro unit do you
>think will grow more quickly barring something fucking up?

All other things being equal, the aero unit should give you superior
yields.

>
>B. With a 130 gallons per hour Via Aqua 302 pump in an 18 gallon
>Rubbermaid tank, would you put the drip unit on a timer for intermittent
>irrigation, the way I have the aero unit set?

As long as the roots are getting plenty of oxygen and are staying
moist, you can drip intermittently. Full-time is safer, however, as
long as you don't waterlog them w/too much volume.

>
>C. Are tech obsessed Rube Goldberg type geeks like myself the only
>people who like messing around with aeroponics? I've met dozens of
>hydro growers and I'm the only one I know of who actually uses an
>aeroponic system let alone likes building them. It's a high-maintenance
>system but the results are tremendous. I've never used nft or ebb and
>flow and this is the first time I've ever used a drip system. Why do
>"normal" gardeners run, not walk, from anything aeroponic?
>
>Muchas grassias, Yerba Buena

As I said, I've used an aero system for several years w/out incident,
and I wouldn't even consider going back, because of the scientifically
proven superiority for root development and aeration. For some
gardeners, the cost of a pre-fab unit is too high, and they don't want
to mess around building one. BTW, here is a good scientific article
showing the superiority of aeroponics over bubbler systems (in a
carefully controlled experiment), which, along with ebb-&-flow
systems, probably come much closer to aero performance than drip
systems:

http://www.eurohydro.com/journal.htm

It begins with a scholarly discussion of the prior literature, and
then goes on to describe the design and results of a carefully
controlled experiment in which rooting progress was noted in clones,
some of which had the upper portion of the stem misted and the lower
portion submerged in the same oxygenated water. The misted
environment was statistically significantly better than the submerged
environment at root propagation, using the same oxygenated water
circulating through the system. They also studied the differential
effects of different levels of oxygen saturation, finding that 8 ppm
(ambient saturation under their experimental temperature conditions)
produced good results; and noted the importance of circulating the
reservoir water rather than allowing it to remain static.

Here's a brief quote from near the end of the article:

'A propagation device in which water is the sole medium might serve
efficiently, provided the water is saturated with dissolved 02 and
agitated sufficiently to minimize or eliminate the boundary layer.
Aero-hydroponics has the advantage of initiating roots either in mist
or in 02-saturated water and subsequent root growth and development in
well-aerated nutrient solution.'

Keep on truckin'
- Moon Doggie -

For a wealth of information about growing and related topics, go to:
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/adpcfaq.htm
IMPORTANT: Are you new to adpc? Get some freedom from Usenet junk
posts in adpc, and see if YOUR posts are being kill filtered as junk!
Read the adpcFreedom FAQ at
http://www.angelfire.com/clone/cacher/freedom/adpcFreedomFAQ.htm

***
Before growing, make sure you know about legal restrictions and penalties that may exist where you live.
***

[pH]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003, Geek <spam@spam.spam> wrote:
>High ADPC,
>
>I started out in 1994 using a wick system, just 2-liter pots in a
>reservoir. Somebody sold me a Foothill Hydroponics aeroponic system for
>$25 because somebody had given it to him and he preferred dirt to
>hydro. I took it apart and added some bigger PVC pipes to adapt it to a
>Rubbermaid tank like the EZClone grower. I've used it since 1998. I've
>had some very good results with aero using a constant spray, but I've
>lost whole crops when something minor went awry, like a mist head
>getting clogged or a pump dying at the worst possible opportunity.
>
>Today I just built a drip system using the same Via Aqua pump from
>Discount Hydroponics that I used in the aero system. I cut holes in two
>lengths of white rigid PVC because I'm sick of having something go wrong
>with aero even though I love building and tending to aeroponic units. A
>few things I'm wondering about:
>
>A. I've started my seeds at the same time in the aero unit and the drip
>unit. I have a total of 830 watts of light. Which hydro unit do you
>think will grow more quickly barring something fucking up?

Probably the aero unit, though the real difference would depend on the type
of media used in the drip system. A drip system with a real loose airy
media, coupled with a well aerated reservoir solution, could some
surprisingly close. However, that sort of media isn't well suited to a
drip system:-) It would require special attention.

>
>B. With a 130 gallons per hour Via Aqua 302 pump in an 18 gallon
>Rubbermaid tank, would you put the drip unit on a timer for intermittent
>irrigation, the way I have the aero unit set?

I used to use a drip system. While there were a few things I didn't like
about it, the most annoying was its tendency to clog emitters. Most
systems that use a small oriface to deliver nutrient solution at plant
sites, and that would include drip emitters and aero misters, use
intermittant irrigation. It's the nature of these systems to clog, because
the nutrient salts have an opportunity to fall out of solution and collect
around the oriface as residual solution left on the emitter evaporates
during the off cycle. With a drip system's oriface being above the media
(where air is drier) evaporation is more rapid than with an aero system
where the oriface is usually contained in the root zone (where air is more
humid and evaporation occurs more slowly). That's the down side of
intermittant irrigation.

You ask..... why not get rid of the emitters and use open-ended feed lines?
Well, you can, but balancing solution delivery equally among all the plant
sites can sometimes pose more of a challenge than preventing emitter clogs.
One purpose for using emitters is that they restrict flow so that water
pressure can remain high in the lines. With that high pressure, each
emitter will work as designed and deliver a flow of 1liter or 1 gallon per
hour, or whatever the emitter's flow rating is. Without emitters, pressure
drops, and whichever open lines have their openings at a higher elevation
than others will see less flow. Sure, ya can use inline valves on lines to
control flow/pressure to some extent (been there, done that), but in the
end you're just trading off emmiter maintenance for eternal valve tweaking.
The best solution I've found for drip systems is to simply replace or clean
the emitters on a regular schedule, or else the first thing you'll do
whenever you enter your grow room is check the emitters for clogs. They're
a pain in the ass, and that's why I stopped using top drip.

The down side of constant irrigation is that a constantly running pump will
run hotter, and will heat the nutrient solution. Needless to say, the
smaller the reservoir the hotter the solution will get. And while constant
irrigation lessens the opportunity for clogs to occur, it's no guarantee
they will not occur. The most obvious drawback, however, is the constant
noise and extra wear and tear on the pump.

>
>C. Are tech obsessed Rube Goldberg type geeks like myself the only
>people who like messing around with aeroponics?

I think yes, but you'll find them messing around with a lot of different
types of systems, not just aero.

> I've met dozens of
>hydro growers and I'm the only one I know of who actually uses an
>aeroponic system let alone likes building them. It's a high-maintenance
>system but the results are tremendous. I've never used nft or ebb and
>flow and this is the first time I've ever used a drip system. Why do
>"normal" gardeners run, not walk, from anything aeroponic?

Because of what you just said...... high-maintenance. Though some who use
aero systems different from yours might disagree with you on that. But
sometimes just the complexity or expense is enough to keep normal gardeners
away. A lot of people wont even consider ebb/flow or NFT just because the
water motion isn't as simple a concept as top drip. Drip in the top, drain
out the bottom, it doesn't get much simpler than that. Some folks just
wanna grow and aren't attracted or sidetracked by the technoconcepts as
much as others. They're looking for pot, not a hobby;-))

Myself, I've settled on ebb/flow because it eliminates the high maintenance
things related to water movement that I didn't like about all the other
systems I've used. It's been faithfully moving my nutrient solution for
over 10 years. I haven't used aero, but with average e/f yields of about
1gram/watt I wouldn't have much to gain from a growth perspective, if
anything. I've never lost a crop, and don't need to perform any special
e/f maintenance during a crop. I use enough growing media to protect me
from a possible pump failure. And though I've never had a pump failure, I
have left the timer off the "auto" setting by mistake, or made other such
personal errors. A couple days without pumping didn't even cause
wilting:-)

The choice of whether or not to use any media is a personal one, though not
all systems provide that option. A reusable media will require some
between-crop clean up maintenance, but media holds water and can prevent
crops lost to a pump failure or clog. An option for some mediumless
growers is to configure their system in such a way that plants are located
over the reservoir and roots grow into the reservoir solution, thus giving
plants a water supply even if the pump fails. There's so many different
ways to set up a hydro grow that it can boggle the mind. The irrigation
method together with the choice of using or not using media are key
decisions to be made regarding crop failure threat and maintenance, but the
rocks and hard places are numerous and do require a good deal of
forethought in order to cover all the bases. It's funny though, how direct
hands-on experience has a way of chaning even the best laid plans:-)

pH

>
>Muchas grassias, Yerba Buena

- ------
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/adpcfaq.htm

~~~
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[privacy.at Anonymous Remailer]

>On 10 Aug 2003 13:27:27 -0000, Wendi Dunlap-Simpson aka pH aka Old Ketchup >Lungs aka Sweet Leaf aka Split Lipshit aka Himself head narkk of the 5yr old pHed scam on >adpc spewed more crap:

IMPORTANT: Are you new to adpc? New to being spammed by the narcs?

You'll love this one

>On 28 May 2000 07:20:07 -0000, pH wrote:

> I can have buds dry enough to smoke in a little more than two days by >letting them air dry.

Hey Newbies watch these guys

greenman pH Sunny emesis Satyr nft MoonDoggie TacoDog Roam8 chronic Myself Travlin Jack Agrippa Lucas Zowie Index Sweet Leaf iguana Krackker Jackk Old Ketchup Lungs Himself

LURK and get anon before hitting this newsgroup...'tis a dangerous place

[Geek]

First off, thanks for the article link!

Moon Doggie wrote:
>

> I've been using an aeroponic system for several years w/out a single
> problem. From my experience, though, you tend to get what you pay
> for. If you paid $25 for something that someone else got for free, I
> would be doubly suspicious that it might be a lemon. On the other
> hand, part of the problem might be how you were using the system. Did
> you use high-quality *liquid* nutes, e.g., from General Hydroponics?
> Never use dissolved powered nutes in an aero system.

I was using Xtra Edge liquids from Foothill (they came with the
system). The system is the smallest version of their AeroMax 2000 and
it always worked well, but I've never used any other system so I really
have no basis for comparison! :-(

>
> BTW, you can't just go away for a long time and expect a system to
> take care of itself. You need to check the system at least once a day
> until the roots descend into the reservoir water.

Actually I check the system four or five times a day just because it's
an aero system...And because I like being in the same room with my
garden. I have the lights and hydro units on 24 hours and of course
when something went wrong it would happen while I was asleep. The main
reason I replaced the original unit with the 18 gal Rubbermaid tank is
so the roots wouldn't be sitting in the water. I added a platform
underneath them later so they won't just sit there and DROWN. Live and
learn.

> After that, pump
> failure shouldn't be a major problem. But a good, high-quality pump
> designed for aero systems should last and last if properly maintained
> (filter and impeller checked every so often and cleaned as necessary).

My fault there for not checking the pump as often as I shoulda. I've
only had a pump die once, though. I replaced the original pump with the
Via Aqua and have had better results.


>
> http://www.eurohydro.com/journal.htm
>
> 'A propagation device in which water is the sole medium might serve
> efficiently, provided the water is saturated with dissolved 02 and
> agitated sufficiently to minimize or eliminate the boundary layer.
> Aero-hydroponics has the advantage of initiating roots either in mist
> or in 02-saturated water and subsequent root growth and development in
> well-aerated nutrient solution.'

I think you just gave me a new experiment. :-)

Muchas grassias, Yerba Buena


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

[Geek]

pH wrote:
> >
> >A. I've started my seeds at the same time in the aero unit and the drip
> >unit. I have a total of 830 watts of light. Which hydro unit do you
> >think will grow more quickly barring something fucking up?
>
> Probably the aero unit, though the real difference would depend on the type
> of media used in the drip system. A drip system with a real loose airy
> media, coupled with a well aerated reservoir solution, could some
> surprisingly close. However, that sort of media isn't well suited to a
> drip system:-) It would require special attention.
>

I found that out yesterday because I started out with coconut fiber
surrounding the Oasis foam cube with the seed in it. When I saw how
quickly the solution ran right through the fiber bypassing the Oasis
cube, I "repotted" the drip unit cubes in hydrocorn.

>
> You ask..... why not get rid of the emitters and use open-ended feed lines?
> Well, you can, but balancing solution delivery equally among all the plant
> sites can sometimes pose more of a challenge than preventing emitter clogs.
> One purpose for using emitters is that they restrict flow so that water
> pressure can remain high in the lines. With that high pressure, each
> emitter will work as designed and deliver a flow of 1liter or 1 gallon per
> hour, or whatever the emitter's flow rating is. Without emitters, pressure
> drops, and whichever open lines have their openings at a higher elevation
> than others will see less flow.

So I guess I'll have to add emitters. The PVC pipes are level because
they sit on top of the net pots. I just cut 1/8 inch holes in them at
the distance of each pot.

> The most obvious drawback, however, is the constant
> noise and extra wear and tear on the pump.

I don't mind the noise, but that was just what happened--the pump kicked
because it was on 24 hours a day.

>
> An option for some mediumless
> growers is to configure their system in such a way that plants are located
> over the reservoir and roots grow into the reservoir solution, thus giving
> plants a water supply even if the pump fails.

Maybe I better get rid of the platform between the grow chamber and the
reservoir. I hadn't thought of that, if you can believe it.

> There's so many different
> ways to set up a hydro grow that it can boggle the mind. The irrigation
> method together with the choice of using or not using media are key
> decisions to be made regarding crop failure threat and maintenance, but the
> rocks and hard places are numerous and do require a good deal of
> forethought in order to cover all the bases. It's funny though, how direct
> hands-on experience has a way of chaning even the best laid plans:-)

Ain't that the truth. This morning I just set up a wick system in the
same space using nothing but chopped Oasis foam and some hydrocorn as
the medium with an aquarium bubbler in the reservoir. If I can find
somewhere to post pics of all three I'll do it.

Muchas grassias, Yerba Buena


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

[pH]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003, Geek <spam@spam.spam> wrote:
>pH wrote:
>> >
>> >A. I've started my seeds at the same time in the aero unit and the drip
>> >unit. I have a total of 830 watts of light. Which hydro unit do you
>> >think will grow more quickly barring something fucking up?
>>
>> Probably the aero unit, though the real difference would depend on the type
>> of media used in the drip system. A drip system with a real loose airy
>> media, coupled with a well aerated reservoir solution, could some
>> surprisingly close. However, that sort of media isn't well suited to a
>> drip system:-) It would require special attention.
>>
>
>I found that out yesterday because I started out with coconut fiber
>surrounding the Oasis foam cube with the seed in it. When I saw how
>quickly the solution ran right through the fiber bypassing the Oasis
>cube, I "repotted" the drip unit cubes in hydrocorn.

Yep, the water column is too narrow, it goes straight down instead of
travelling laterally. Most of the top half of the media between plant
sites won't even get wet enough to support roots.

>
>>
>> You ask..... why not get rid of the emitters and use open-ended feed lines?
>> Well, you can, but balancing solution delivery equally among all the plant
>> sites can sometimes pose more of a challenge than preventing emitter clogs.
>> One purpose for using emitters is that they restrict flow so that water
>> pressure can remain high in the lines. With that high pressure, each
>> emitter will work as designed and deliver a flow of 1liter or 1 gallon per
>> hour, or whatever the emitter's flow rating is. Without emitters, pressure
>> drops, and whichever open lines have their openings at a higher elevation
>> than others will see less flow.
>
>So I guess I'll have to add emitters. The PVC pipes are level because
>they sit on top of the net pots. I just cut 1/8 inch holes in them at
>the distance of each pot.

As long as your pump supplies enough back pressure the emitters should drip
equal volumes of water. I think the last emitters I used required a
minimum of 5psi to live up to their flow rating.

>
>> The most obvious drawback, however, is the constant
>> noise and extra wear and tear on the pump.
>
>I don't mind the noise, but that was just what happened--the pump kicked
>because it was on 24 hours a day.
>
>>
>> An option for some mediumless
>> growers is to configure their system in such a way that plants are located
>> over the reservoir and roots grow into the reservoir solution, thus giving
>> plants a water supply even if the pump fails.
>
>Maybe I better get rid of the platform between the grow chamber and the
>reservoir. I hadn't thought of that, if you can believe it.

I can believe it, it's not too hard to get visions of drowning roots when
they're immersed. A cheapo air pump and airstone will keep them more than
happy in the reservoir.

>
>> There's so many different
>> ways to set up a hydro grow that it can boggle the mind. The irrigation
>> method together with the choice of using or not using media are key
>> decisions to be made regarding crop failure threat and maintenance, but the
>> rocks and hard places are numerous and do require a good deal of
>> forethought in order to cover all the bases. It's funny though, how direct
>> hands-on experience has a way of chaning even the best laid plans:-)
>
>Ain't that the truth. This morning I just set up a wick system in the
>same space using nothing but chopped Oasis foam and some hydrocorn as
>the medium with an aquarium bubbler in the reservoir. If I can find
>somewhere to post pics of all three I'll do it.

Man, you sure keep yourself busy:-)

The adpcfaq link in my sig has a section about which binary groups we
usually post pics to. Unless you live where you can't get in any trouble
you might want to find a way to post so your IP address doesn't show in
your headers.

Good luck with all the stuff you got happening.
pH

>
>Muchas grassias, Yerba Buena
>
>
>-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
>http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
>-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----


- -------
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/adpcfaq.htm


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[pHuck off pHed]

>On 11 Aug 2003 10:15:42 -0000, WENDI DUNLAP-SIMPSON aka pH aka >Old Ketchup Lungs aka Sweet Leaf head narkk of the 5yr old pHed scam >on adpc spewed more crap:

A page. (Text only.) From the terminated spookbusters web pages.
Spookbusters please come back with more narcs.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

ABSOLUTE 100% HUMILIATION - NAMING AND SHAMING THE ZIONIST PIGS
THE WHOLE CIA TEAM LINED UP FOR PUBLIC RIDICULE BY NAME AND NUMBER!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

Narc Exposure pHase II - Detailed briefing and numbering of narcs
"Green Man" and "pH" are a pair of CIA goons who live in Beacon Hill,
Seattle USA.

In this new sensational exposure Spookbusters publicly shames Mr Jason
Rudy Simpson, Mrs Wendi Dunlap Simpson, their gay housemate "Brent"
and two more resident goons for running the CIA "Safe House" bungalow
as the control center for phony newsgroup alt.drugs.pot.cultivation.
"pH" (Wendi Dunlap-Simpson) is "Green Man"'s wife. The address and
telephone numbers: A vintage 1920's bungalow packed out full of narcs,
computers and spook equipment:

2921 17th Ave S Seattle Washington 98144 USA

Phone +1 (206) 302-7869 or +1 (206) 323-4957

Seattleites: If you want to see the CIA evacuation of their narcs and
all their equipment, be quick!

This next photo was taken by a CIA dwarf midget in a wheelchair. (Doug
Lathrop) : The steep camera angle should not fool you, Jason is only
5foot7 tall, Wendi is about 5foot.

<snip photo of pig. try http://www.slumberland.seattle.wa.us>

Jason and Wendi Simpson's filthy CIA job is spamming the
alt.drugs.pot.cultivation newsgroup a phony CIA venture. The Simpsons
coordinate US Government propaganda, marijuana seedbank and narc
anonymizer, remailer and web proxy spamming. Close CIA alliance with
Marc "Nazi Narc" Emery of emeryseeds.com (hempbc), Laughing-Moon.com
etc. They have personally made journeys across the border to
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, on CIA business with Marc "Nazi
Narc" Emery. Their CIA bosses control "Hells Stairway" and all CIA
internet spook seed outlets.

Jason and Wendi Simpson's grassing is controlled from a top-secret CIA
facility at the US Army "Yakima Firing Center" (an NSA Echelon data
interception station) inside the old Yakima Indian reservation
south-east of Seattle. NSA satellite dishes point out toward the
Pacific Intelsats and to the East.

That Yakima facility is a co-ordination point for CIA "Anonymous"
remailers on the net including www.replay.com AKA www.xs4all.nl (the
biggest anonymous remailer on the net, that Spookbusters recently
exposed as a CIA front and destroyed.) Logs of every message passing
through Alex The Judas's www.replay.com and www.zedz.net sting
operations were transmitted back home to the Yakima spy base.

The internal codename for CIA's network of phony anonymous remailers
is "Rattlesnakes". The CIA have the "Replay Rattlesnake", "Gretchen
Rattlesnake", "Brubble Rattlesnake", "Cracker Rattlesnake" etc. 90% of
all remailers at one time are CIA "Rattlesnakes".

Spookbusters exposed "Green Man" and "pH" (Without their real names,
only by their nym handles) in November 1998. Mid 1999 the spooks
changed onto "Moon Doggie/Iguana", "Freyhaust", and plenty of other
handles. Both Jason and Wendi have used hundreds of handles for posts
of fake questions and answers in alt.drugs.pot.cultivation to
brainwash, befriend, train, incite, supply and finally entrap
marijuana growers. Newbies please browse down Spookbusters front-page
to learn info about these goons and their history. Spookbusters has
tracked them for one year. We have hundreds of their messages
archived.

Marijuana "Spook Bank" seed propaganda websites controlled by the
Simpsons include :

http://www.angelfire.com/ga/greenmanspage
http://www.members.tripod.com/~enter_ccr/
http://members.tripod.com/~maxi_scrog/
http://www.suresite.com

[Plant a Mackem]

"pHuck off pHed" <fritz@rodent.frell.eu.org> wrote in message
news:58ddf4fc722a8e200163efa82e31f503@remailer.fre ll.eu.org...

<snip>

> http://www.angelfire.com/ga/greenmanspage

"The page you are attempting to access has been removed because it violated
Angelfire's Term of Service."

He he.